Author Topic: Where are the hordes of angry people? (Read 2538 times)

lisandra · « **on:** October 26, 2011, 09:10:07 PM »

Im sorry u guys, Im actually enjoying the peace were having around here, but I dont forget things easily... When the EP 3 came out the masses of mostly tourists (you know, the people who barely post all year long..) came and attacked the ISO 3200 of the PEN saying it was unusable and embarrassing. Never mind everything else oly bought to the table, noise at iso 3200 was the topic of conversation and deemed the camera as junk. I also remember the never ending rant about blue channel noise on the GH2 and how 18 mp on a 4/3 sensor equals pxel pitch crap. Im not talking solely about this fine web page, but it was like that everywhere. Now sony has a camera with the exact same pixel pitch as the GH2 and a quite a few reviews out there and Im just...stupefied... I waited for the DPreview review to come out and confirmed my suspicions, everybody seems to be giving this camera a huge by (you know, like when in a competition theres an odd number of competitors so one of them goes to the next round automatically). Well, the a77 seems to be that number. And i mean everyone, from popphoto to camera labs, they barely brush through the negative and then proceed to say the camera is better than hot chocolate. Even in the comments its this is great or high ISO is awesome or I want this. This is ISO 6400 RAW noise on all 4 cameras, even the G3 with its higher magenta noise retains a good 90% of the original detail, The A77? completely useless. They dedicated a mere 1 sentence to this: it is hard to 'rescue' images taken at ISO 6400 and above, even with careful raw post-processing.

A77 GH2 G3 5N

According to popphoto, by ISO 400 the A77 loses enough detail to noise that the GH2 outresolves it, by 3200 its a no contest. You want to see that? go here http://e-p1.net/coffee-talk/the-experiment/msg60243/#msg60243
Even when compared to the not spectacular A55 the A77 just lags behind. Noticeably.

look at this ISO 100 JPEG. Its smeared to hell and back

A body, as wonderfully laid out and rugged as it may be, is garbage without a good sensor behind it. Or Im I missing something?

P.S. this actually took a lot of work!

count_zero · « **Reply #1 on:** October 26, 2011, 09:37:49 PM »

Olympus and Panasonic need to throw better after parties at tech conventions.

lisandra · « **Reply #2 on:** October 26, 2011, 09:55:05 PM »

I use to think review sites where unbiased and could not be bought. Ever notice how amazingly fast Sony cameras get reviewed?

cosinaphile · « **Reply #3 on:** October 27, 2011, 05:26:04 AM »

no the gushing love for the new sonys is suspicious,im pretty sure the sites vary their opinions based on financial renumeration .

RT_Panther · « **Reply #4 on:** October 27, 2011, 09:58:50 AM »

Ah the "conspiracy" theories....

Why not try this.
For some fair an balanced input, listen to the feedback from Sigma, Pentax, Nikon, & Canon owners - none of which have any fanboy/fangirl stake or ownerships towards Sony & Micro Four Thirds.

Heck, most Nikon owners are even trashing "their own" Nikon V1/J1! - How's that for un-biased feedback!

count_zero · « **Reply #5 on:** October 27, 2011, 11:07:07 AM »

Yup, it's funny reading comments from other roller derby photographer friends of mine complaining about the same thing I complain about, except they are using $3000 camera bodies and 50lb telephoto lenses. Too much grain, too much motion blur, focus is too slow, not fast enough fps, my neck hurts, blah blah. At least with m43 you don't get the "my neck hurts" complaint. It's really all about understanding the limits of your equipment, then optimizing your technique to work within the means of the camera.

voyager · « **Reply #6 on:** October 27, 2011, 02:59:14 PM »

Quote from: lisandra on October 26, 2011, 09:55:05 PM

I use to think review sites where unbiased and could not be bought. Ever notice how amazingly fast Sony cameras get reviewed?

That has always happened. Dcresource refused to accept the E-P1 as a serious camera. Dpreview refuses to give the Canon 1D series a review after once Canon didn't tell them about their announcement.

lisandra · « **Reply #7 on:** October 28, 2011, 12:52:18 AM »

Quote from: RT_Panther on October 27, 2011, 09:58:50 AM

Ah the "conspiracy" theories....

Why not try this.
For some fair an balanced input, listen to the feedback from Sigma, Pentax, Nikon, & Canon owners - none of which have any fanboy/fangirl stake or ownerships towards Sony & Micro Four Thirds.

Heck, most Nikon owners are even trashing "their own" Nikon V1/J1! - How's that for un-biased feedback!

fans will be fans, I get and accept that..what I'm thinking primarily is, why are the review sites letting its flaws go by? Nobody has really said "well, the sensor is awful". ISO 3200 is barely usable and 6400 is smeared to hell, this wasn't an acceptable thing a couple of months back. And that ISO 100..embarrassing!!! It's severely beaten by the 5n and the gh2. It's a flat out no contest between it and its "competitors" , the 7d and the k5. Yet the reviews are just looking the other way.....they certainly don't look the other way when it comes to comparing m4/3s sensor noise to APS C sensor noise...
Oh, and the v1 sucks man, point and shoot image quality at dslr price...

RT_Panther · « **Reply #8 on:** October 28, 2011, 04:25:10 AM »

Lisandra,
Your bias is showing.

It *appears* to me that you now believe that any positive review of MFT is a "good, solid" review & anything review that is negative in some fashion is a "corrupt" and'or "terrible" review.

We're humans and anything negative about stuff we love hurts.

There's a reason why I own multiple brands of cameras - and that's because I'm sane enough to realize that there is no single best brand out there. All brands that I own (Nikon, Sigma, Olympus, Sony, Panasonic) all have negatives. And if I can't understand that - and if I get defensive everytime a negative is said, then I need to get out of photography.

My advice to you is to be like the Four Thirds system owners that I've seen and NOT get so wound up over this kind of stuff....

I know that some of my stuff sucks, but I'm not going to get wrapped around the axle over it

cosinaphile · « **Reply #9 on:** October 28, 2011, 05:37:45 AM »

but i also see a bit of unfairness torward micro four thirds out in the "interweb

" to the point of insult at times , and as theses nay sayers who just dont "get the mirrorless way " the worls is slowly moving to mirrorless and smaller sensors too, there is too much unforgiving attitude out there for the sony .... so let me say it like it is ....and what i havnt heard at any site plainly stated...

sony corporation ruined an almost perfect enthusiast camera..... a robustly built,, grippable, button and dial laden,world class VF INBUILT camera
the sony nex 7 by burdening it with an overpacked sensor with an absurd amount of mps for an apsc sensor [ at this technological juncture] for the simple reason of marketing and bragging rights , while givingsensor image quality a place on the back burrner ,
they are falling flat also on their average optical quality, coke can sized lenses ,if i may add a further criticism

high iso for the ep1 was ragged ....everywhere....and for the nex7 its brusshed aside with a slight mention and a hall pass.

Em5 Pete · « **Reply #10 on:** October 28, 2011, 09:13:54 AM »

Apparently, lobbyist abound in the photography review world also

And a few of the better testers can be bought like other "people" we know of

That's why I love photo forums like this one.

Tell it like it like it is, from your experience.

Sent from my iPad

RT_Panther · « **Reply #11 on:** October 28, 2011, 09:35:48 AM »

What I see here is that there is no substantive proof that the reviewers are getting paid off.....only theories....

Okay, now back to these 6 frames left to shoot on this roll

RT_Panther · « **Reply #12 on:** October 28, 2011, 11:00:28 AM »

I really don't see what all the conspiracy fuss is about...

From DPREVIEW.COM

Quote

Conclusion - Cons
■In-camera JPEGs don't show off the 24MP sensor to its best extent
■Comparatively strong noise reduction at medium and high ISO settings
■Very noisy raw files at high ISO settings
■Little control over high ISO noise reduction in JPEG mode ('auto' or 'weak')■Limited control in 12 fps continuous shooting and movie modes
■No live view in 8 or 12 fps continuous shooting modes makes accurate panning very difficult
■Menu system a little confusing (hard to orientate yourself sometimes)
■Slightly 'laggy' menu system and UI.
■Awkward to navigate between stills and movie playback modes

lisandra · « **Reply #13 on:** October 28, 2011, 12:33:23 PM »

I am biased towards m4/3s, I don't even deny it. You know I think the gh2 outdetails pretty much anything APS C out there ( that's MY personal measure I know) but I say this based on comparisons I've made myself with the gear I have (sony, Olympus, canon). I always try to post some samples of what I'm trying to say (like the ones above). But there's no denying that review sites are really quick to point out the negatives on m4/3s, and even if that isn't true (lets assume its not and that I'm slightly paranoid), I wanted this camera, I did, look at older posts, I was excited about it. If anything I'm a bit biased towards Sony too, and Im well aware how often I've said noise is not the primary concern when it comes to iq, but this is beyond what I can tolerate. I put the 5n samples there for a reason, its not as detailed as the gh2

but look at how much tremendously better it looks compared to the a77. I'm not even trying to win an argument here, what concerns me is that if the reviewers (and the people) let this slide then Sony might come out next year with a 42 mp APS C camera...
I still want a more pro Sony body, one with 1/3 stops increments, with a higher auto ISO than 1600, with a shoot without confirmation option, peak focusing, and an ISO 3200 at least as usable as the a55 or gh2. Unlike the rest of the whining universe (no one from here) I actually use high ISO.
To sum it up, I want the 5n sensor on the a77 body, and I think Sony is not gonna make it if the reviews keep on giving them the thumbs up.

lisandra · « **Reply #14 on:** October 28, 2011, 12:36:17 PM »

Quote from: RT_Panther on October 28, 2011, 11:00:28 AM

I really don't see what all the conspiracy fuss is about...
From DPREVIEW.COM

Quote
Conclusion - Cons
■In-camera JPEGs don't show off the 24MP sensor to its best extent
■Comparatively strong noise reduction at medium and high ISO settings
■Very noisy raw files at high ISO settings
■Little control over high ISO noise reduction in JPEG mode ('auto' or 'weak')■Limited control in 12 fps continuous shooting and movie modes
■No live view in 8 or 12 fps continuous shooting modes makes accurate panning very difficult
■Menu system a little confusing (hard to orientate yourself sometimes)
■Slightly 'laggy' menu system and UI.
■Awkward to navigate between stills and movie playback modes

true true but they still gave it the highest score of any camera reviewed this year!

voyager · « **Reply #15 on:** October 29, 2011, 01:36:47 PM »

Quote from: RT_Panther on October 28, 2011, 11:00:28 AM

I really don't see what all the conspiracy fuss is about...
From DPREVIEW.COM

Quote
Conclusion - Cons
■In-camera JPEGs don't show off the 24MP sensor to its best extent
■Comparatively strong noise reduction at medium and high ISO settings
■Very noisy raw files at high ISO settings
■Little control over high ISO noise reduction in JPEG mode ('auto' or 'weak')■Limited control in 12 fps continuous shooting and movie modes
■No live view in 8 or 12 fps continuous shooting modes makes accurate panning very difficult
■Menu system a little confusing (hard to orientate yourself sometimes)
■Slightly 'laggy' menu system and UI.
■Awkward to navigate between stills and movie playback modes

I don't rely on what they put in the con section, but what their "final words" section and rating says. I don't believe that they get paid off by certain camera companies, but Dpreview does place ads only for Canon cameras on their website, which is best described as a conflict of interest if they're expected to be impartial.

RT_Panther · « **Reply #16 on:** October 29, 2011, 08:30:05 PM »

Quote from: voyager on October 29, 2011, 01:36:47 PM

Dpreview does place ads only for Canon cameras on their website, which is best described as a conflict of interest if they're expected to be impartial.

I just saw an Olympus E-PM1 ad on the DPREVIEW website....

lisandra · « **Reply #17 on:** October 29, 2011, 11:12:06 PM »

conspiracy theories aside, I want the feature set of the a77 with the 5n sensor...

Jason C · « **Reply #18 on:** October 30, 2011, 07:08:08 PM »

I don't get angry anymore, nor do 'listen' to corporate slopped hype. I wait till the photographers shoot with the gear, and read their hyperbole. If it's something I'm interested in, I may get it in two or three years time...when it becomes useless trash to their current owners.

Jason C

lisandra · « **Reply #19 on:** December 14, 2011, 11:26:14 PM »

SO, after about of two years of listening to all the whining and bitching everywhere about noise, the noisiest of ALL slr sensors out there gets a gold award at dpreview and wins camera of the year at popphoto...

RT_Panther · « **Reply #20 on:** December 15, 2011, 05:59:30 AM »

Quote from: lisandra on December 14, 2011, 11:26:14 PM

SO, after about of two years of listening to all the whining and bitching everywhere about noise, the noisiest of ALL slr sensors out there gets a gold award at dpreview and wins camera of the year at popphoto...

Actually,
The noisest of all SLR sensors (but arguably the one with the best IQ) is the Foveon.

No Foveon sensored camera won an award.

lisandra · « **Reply #21 on:** December 15, 2011, 08:09:22 AM »

Quote from: RT_Panther on December 15, 2011, 05:59:30 AM

Quote from: lisandra on December 14, 2011, 11:26:14 PM
SO, after about of two years of listening to all the whining and bitching everywhere about noise, the noisiest of ALL slr sensors out there gets a gold award at dpreview and wins camera of the year at popphoto...

Actually,
The noisest of all SLR sensors (but arguably the one with the best IQ) is the Foveon.

No Foveon sensored camera won an award.

I actually think the a77 is noisier than the the dp2 at ISO 3200...

Jason C · « **Reply #22 on:** December 15, 2011, 09:18:37 AM »

"Where are the hordes of angry people?"

I am here. Now, why am I angry again?

Jason C

panzerfaustnl · « **Reply #23 on:** December 15, 2011, 12:16:25 PM »

Quote from: RT_Panther on December 15, 2011, 05:59:30 AM

Quote from: lisandra on December 14, 2011, 11:26:14 PM
SO, after about of two years of listening to all the whining and bitching everywhere about noise, the noisiest of ALL slr sensors out there gets a gold award at dpreview and wins camera of the year at popphoto...

Actually,
The noisest of all SLR sensors (but arguably the one with the best IQ) is the Foveon.

No Foveon sensored camera won an award.

But that's not because of the sensor, that's because it has no fun settings, and it can be slow in writing the files. It's not an alround sensor. But as far as I have read the reviews, unbeatable in photography where speed is not an issue.

RT_Panther · « **Reply #24 on:** December 15, 2011, 02:37:53 PM »

Quote from: lisandra on December 15, 2011, 08:09:22 AM

I actually think the a77 is noisier than the the dp2 at ISO 3200...

I'll let you folks be the judge....The shot below is SOOC @ ISO 3200 with my Sigma DP2 (converted to JPG with SPP 5)

Personally, I don't shoot above ISO 400 (and most often at ISO 50) because of the loss of color & noise that occurs....
IMHO, past 400 you lose that which makes Foveon "Foveon"...

Sigma DP2 @ ISO 3200 Straight Out Of Camera by RedTail_Panther, on Flickr

Author Topic: Where are the hordes of angry people? (Read 2538 times)

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