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Author Topic: The absolute death of cinema film..  (Read 2251 times)

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Offline lisandra

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The absolute death of cinema film..
« on: April 10, 2011, 09:36:35 PM »
its to interesting not to post...
20 mp cmos, dedicated green pixel for light gathering (a panny trick), wider color gamut than film (so wide it actually approaches the entire gamut of visible light), medium format dynamic range, all the ratios in the world in-camera, 1.3x and 2x anamorphic crop modes,HD-SDI Monitoring outputs with viewing LUT's, 16bit RAW recording, 8K video at 120fps, and solid state memory rated at 2-5 terabytes thats faster than anything out there by miles. I actually thought I was reading an april fools joke, but then I saw it in the sony page. Rental only at first, then Ferrari prices (really)
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/digitalcinematography/f65.html

Film officially died.
More megapixels don't necessarily mean more resolution...

Offline peterb666

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2011, 09:59:22 PM »
Not the least bit surprising.
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Offline lisandra

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2011, 10:04:49 PM »
why? I think its a huge jump, I thought tamoio was gonna have a heart attack for sure.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2011, 10:07:14 PM by lisandra »
More megapixels don't necessarily mean more resolution...

Online adash

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2011, 10:07:35 PM »
why? I think its a huge jump, I thought tomaio was gonna have a heart attack for sure
That's gonna happen when he sees the price...
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Offline lisandra

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2011, 11:24:01 PM »
if they put a sensor like that on a stills camera theyll own the market
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Offline corgifan

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2011, 11:26:13 PM »
Eventually the high end imaging technology will filter down to the consumer.  Nothing but good things ahead for photographers, assuming that the world doesn't self-destruct first, although we can at least record it in wide gamut HiDef now.  :o

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Offline popo

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2011, 04:14:15 AM »
Maybe I'm being blind again, I don't see mention of how big the sensor is?
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Offline lisandra

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2011, 10:34:26 AM »
its a new 21:9 aspect sensor, so its not really conventional in terms of size names but its a big bigger than their super 35mm
More megapixels don't necessarily mean more resolution...

tamoio

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2011, 01:24:45 PM »
why? I think its a huge jump, I thought tamoio was gonna have a heart attack for sure.

I did a stress test a few months back and the ticker is in pretty darn good shape.

I think it will take about 3 or 6 months before the F65 starts showing up in rental houses. Very few people own their own cameras at this level (camera rental is a billable expense after all). In fact no one could ever own a Panavision camera except Panavision, they only rented them.

As sensor technology and cameras continue to explode every 12 months I wonder about the monitors people use in post to QC this material. Good monitors are really really expensive, according to my Sony rep only a couple years ago (2009) I don't think Sony made a monitor that could display the color information that their best HD cameras were recording.

But back to the OP: I think if this camera has the DR it claims it makes it pretty hard to justify the expense of shooting film anymore.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2011, 01:26:29 PM by tamoio »

Offline lisandra

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2011, 11:38:14 AM »
Aaaaaaaaand here it is, announced and ready for delivery at a very cheap price (for the feature set). Its 65k$. Remember that the ultra high grade f35 costs 250,000$, and this thing beats it hands down. 16 bit RAW footage and the possibility in the future (when the tech catches up, its that advanced) to decode 8k video from the raw files.
It has 14 stops of dynamic range and does 120fps at 1080p, 60fps at 4k and just about everything in between. Makes an Arri Alexa look like a 1994 handicam...
More megapixels don't necessarily mean more resolution...

Offline tamoio

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2011, 12:59:05 PM »
Aaaaaaaaand here it is, announced and ready for delivery at a very cheap price (for the feature set). Its 65k$. Remember that the ultra high grade f35 costs 250,000$, and this thing beats it hands down. 16 bit RAW footage and the possibility in the future (when the tech catches up, its that advanced) to decode 8k video from the raw files.
It has 14 stops of dynamic range and does 120fps at 1080p, 60fps at 4k and just about everything in between. Makes an Arri Alexa look like a 1994 handicam...


I think Alexas will be able to hold their own for awhile. $65k is still a rental camera for most folks, especially with the cost of suitable resolving lenses for such a beast. Arri probably has a competitor waiting in the wings.

I don't think Roger Deakins will run out and buy one, or switch from film any time soon (although he doesn't seem to hate digital).

http://www.rogerdeakins.com/
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Offline lisandra

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2011, 08:00:43 PM »
I think film makers dont change gear because they get married to whatever tech they use and refuse to look at anything else. It sounds harsh I know,  but 35mm film users will argue till theyre blue about the quality of film and refuse to accept that digital can compete, On the other hand, digital users will argue on the versatility of digital, shadow detail and noise control. I realized this even more when I saw the zacuto shootout (this year's) and many were surprised  at the output of the format that they didnt use. A lot were amazingly surprised that the AF 100 delivered waaaay more detail than the 5D,which is silly, the 5D is a stills oriented and optimized piece of equipment. Goes to show that pros are not immune to the sensor size silliness. Others were surprised to see that while highlight detail undoubtedly goes to film, digital rules the shadow arena by quite a margin. The fact that they were so surprised and amazed tells me that they had not gone out of their comfort zone format of choice.
All in all what this ultimately means is that your right, film users will most likely stick with film, and arri users will most likely stick with arri.
Still, spec wise this thing seems spectacular.

Changing the subject a bit, the hints that 4k is coming to us mere mortals are overwhelming. The quiet upgrade to HDMI 1.4 (whos major change was better support of 4k and 3D), sharp announcing their plans to have 4k consumer LCDs by the end of 2012 claiming that 3D sacrifices too much resolution (which, BTW, should be shot in 60p), and last but not least panny working on a 4k 4/3s  video sensor. Keep in mind I said consumer, there are already 4k LCDs out there, from about every maker you can think of, but I cant imagine what youd have to do to get your hands on one...or maybe its just me seeing things that are not there...
More megapixels don't necessarily mean more resolution...

Offline lisandra

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2011, 08:18:56 PM »
the tittle of the thread is also a bit much....
More megapixels don't necessarily mean more resolution...

Offline cosinaphile

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2011, 10:59:57 PM »
the specs frighten  a bit......hold me...... 

Online adash

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2011, 11:26:02 PM »
The absolute death of film may not happen soon in almost any area. With amazing digital cameras, that can almost rival film's resolution and dynamic range, and with the virtually zero processing cost for digital images, 135 and 120 films should have been dead already, but they aren't.
The same about cine film - I can not imagine what makes people purchase 8mm or Super-8 nowadays, but apparently they still do.
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Offline tamoio

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2011, 12:58:02 AM »
. . .and oddly enough we still look at projected film when we actually bother to go out to the cinema, even if it originated on digital.

Or even crazier, shoot on 35 or 70mm, go to digital intermediate for cgi work and then print back to film for release (people have been doing that for years).

In the 90s when I was still doing crew work the labs we used were absolutely plugged to capacity with processing original 16 and 35 and then transferring to tape for editing, the edit houses would then ingest the selects (real time) into their Avids or Media100s (this was before FCP hit the streets). This work path employed armies of people, I wonder what they are doing now.

I'm not really sure that 4K is such a big deal for consumer TV (and even if it was there probably needs to be a new delivery format with an accompanying "standards war"), I think all along its been seen as the silver bullet for high end-hollywood acquisition. I bet the Panasonic AF200 does 4K and comes in under $65K.
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Online adash

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2011, 01:21:03 AM »
Not sure what the hell this 4k is for. I mean, ok, I am perfectly fine with DVD quality on my screen, 1920 takes me a bit too much in the action sometimes, seeing sort of overwhelming detail instead of the big picture, amazing for documentary, wildlife, etc, but 4k? What am I gonna do with that?
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Offline lisandra

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2011, 08:32:52 AM »
Detail apparently, a lot of 1080p footage today is scaled down from 4k or higher. It seems stupid, but it isn't. It's like resizing a photo to 8 megapixels from 16, its gonna be more detailed than if it was shot at 8 mp in the first place. But that doesn't really answer your question...4k displays are gonna have a very limited amount of support, upscaling to 4k would take a tremendous amount of computing power, more than what the ps3 with its 7 cores can do. 4k is not just simply double 1080p, its actually 8 times as much. I also can't imagine in what media would they store those movies, since 90 mins of 4k take an unfathomable amount of space...but then again, not more than 7 years ago we were using 256 mb floppy disks...things change fast...
More megapixels don't necessarily mean more resolution...

Offline panzerfaustnl

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2011, 03:31:13 AM »
Nah, you will at the end see that commercial film makers will use digital to create cinema movies. The others will use film and digital and combine it etc etc.

Same situation as with photography. Analog photography has reached it's lowest point, but it will not go away. Lomography is booming for an example.
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Offline tamoio

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2011, 01:32:46 PM »
"Le doute n'est pas une condition agréable, mais la certitude est absurde." -voltaire

Online Em5 Pete

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Re: The absolute death of cinema film..
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2011, 04:28:02 PM »
Very enlightening read..
Well, short rolled 35mm is still alive... In 24/36 and 100' rolls.  Although, Fuji has discontinued Neopan 400 and Acros 100  :'(. My 2 favorite BW films.  I guess Ilford Delta Pro 100 and 400 are my future.

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