Author Topic: Fujian to enter "mirror-less" SLR market (Read 3310 times)

rogerml · « **Reply #25 on:** October 08, 2011, 04:47:34 PM »

tamoio said (Yesterday at 03:05:23PM): "Yes Roger (and all else), I'm a facts-kinda-guy too. In fact I'm an academic facts-kinda-guy. Someone provide me with a source for Fuji X100 sales numbers worldwide? The only place I've ever seen these sort of statistics tossed around are in thinly veiled marketing/press releases in the blogosphere. 80,000 units shipped from the factory? To where? - "

Now, first of all, I'm not an avid contributor to discussions on English language forums, the reason being that English is not my mother tongue. When you write: 'In fact I'm an academic facts-kinda-guy', I'm afraid I (might) fail to take the (intended) point? Personally, I feel my own academic background fails to give me an upper hand in trying to getting 'the facts' (of X100 world wide sales) from the web. What I can tell you, though, I know how to read facts, certainly so if they (the facts) are given in an all easy way, for everyone to understand. Here the case is that 'M-5User' served these facts in his initial post, in form of a link [Fuji to enter "mirror-less" market with LARGE sensor camera], for all (future) contributors to this thread to see. One of the photos on that link site shows what we here (among other things) are debating here, - and supplies answers to some of your'e questions (see above 'quote'), - and here's an upscaled photo (from that same link) below:

Details

Fujifilm FinePix X100 world wide sales table - issued by FUJIFILM, Japan

As I read and comprehend the table, - mind you, having to trust 'google' on the translation part, I believe it to be that Fujifilm states that 70thousands X100 are produced from April until September [which, by their standing point equals 'sold', - anything else would be plain 'academics', :-)], and that their 'estimates' are towards 100thousands [in total] for the remaining of 2011. No, I cannot answer to how this compare with 'the rest of the camera world', - that being Canon or Nikon, - and if you say this is 'a pee in the ocean', - or words to that effect, - then we'll leave that part to the ones who know about that. My best guess would be, in a general term, fair, more than adequate (seems to me to be a fair judgement, based on 'availability' at designated photo stores around the world, (USoA being a valid example in that), which could be a sign that sales have exceeded Fujifilm's own preplanned estimates for production capacity?). Anyhow, comparing the camera in question here with any of these brands, especially DSLR's, fails to be fair, or for that matter, logic. As you well know, the X100 was never planned, constructed or made to compete with DSLR's. Fujifilm is currently far behind CanIkon in sales, as they are behind at least three more competitors in the camera world. For some years now Fujifilm has been producing nothing but small-sensored P&S's, - and if they have any serious intention to join the 'leading pack', the more than anything else needed to bring to the marketplace a camera that made 'a market place fuzz', - in lack of a better word! And they managed that for sure! No camera I know about, has created this amount of media hype, - well before entering the said market place, - and, - must be said, have 'escaped' rather quite well from the risk of 'falling height' the company obviously were creating with this (self induced) hype!

The X100 is a complete success no matter how one chose to explain the term. If, at all, there's one 'let down' about it, it got to be the lay-out/design of the menu, - and a somewhat 'not so fantastic' AF, - significantly so when the camera is operating in low light. ISO, WB, DR and IQ competence are equal, or better, than any competitors, - Leica (X1, - and for some reasons, M8/9, with no AF at all) could, in some ways, be one of those. (I wonder what Leica m8/9 owners would do with their $7.700 houses a few years from now, - as the sensor tech in (probable) any other pro or enthusiast camera has passed the 2006 and 2009 Leica-sensor(s) technically in any meaningful sense, and thus made all M8&9 houses passé (outdated, - and not sellable to a second hand market, as have always been the case with Leicas of pre-digital, i.e. analog era). I, for one, will not feel that 'bad' when the time come I'll have to have my X100 replaced, - with hopefully, a X200, mirrorless, 'rangefinder design', hybrid viewfinder, interchangeable lens camera. :-)

You mention that I (and all else) can get 'unquestionably better tools for the same money'. I hope what you will recommend to me (and all else) is NOT a Canon DSLR, - as I already own a D1mk3, D5mk2, D40 & D7 (last week I gave away an old D20 to my wife's nephew). With those belongs a heap-load of L-glass, from 400/f5.6and downwards to 14/f2.8mk2., incl. of 85/f1.2L, TS-E 24/f3.5, 16-35/f2.8 & the two Ext. Please, neither recommend the PEN's and the GF1, - as I already own them as well. Those are all great cameras, as I (and all else) in here already know. What you recommend should be easy, - and light, to carry around on my weak back and frail legs, please. Can't wait to hear from you, :-)

lisandra · « **Reply #26 on:** October 08, 2011, 08:18:25 PM »

Panny claims they can't keep up with the demand of the gh2 almost 10 months after its release, I've yet to see one in the wild besides mine despite that ... See what i mean?

RT_Panther · « **Reply #27 on:** October 08, 2011, 08:31:36 PM »

Quote from: tamoio on October 06, 2011, 08:17:07 PM

. .define succeed

I've still never seen one around someone's neck.

I've never seen a GH2 around anyone's neck either....

RT_Panther · « **Reply #28 on:** October 08, 2011, 08:37:37 PM »

Quote from: count_zero on October 06, 2011, 10:04:35 PM

That's a bit like saying Lamborghini isn't a success because you never see them besides in Dubai, Monaco, or LA.

+1

asterinex · « **Reply #29 on:** October 09, 2011, 02:06:24 AM »

The question will be weather M4/3 sensor can keep up with larger sensor from more and more competitors.
Fuji, Nex, Samsung....
Will the smaller sensor be a handicap ?

cosinaphile · « **Reply #30 on:** October 09, 2011, 05:01:42 AM »

its already a handicap in terms of high iso performance and even just image quality at normal iso`s compared to the nex 5n and the x 100 , but its a tradeoff i accepted in 2009 because of the compliment of features m 43 offered in 2009, as much i love micro 43 , its sensors needs improving , as long as sony make gigantic kit zooms and 24mm primes the size of coke cans i will see the benefits of size in micro
4\3lenses .....my e-p1 is still capable of very good things , its legs got even longer when pared with the 12mm 2

RT_Panther · « **Reply #31 on:** October 09, 2011, 11:31:36 AM »

Come to think about it...
I've never seen an E-P1 nor E-P2 around anyone's neck either....

Em5 Pete · « **Reply #32 on:** October 09, 2011, 12:37:54 PM »

Quote from: RT_Panther on October 09, 2011, 11:31:36 AM

Come to think about it...
I've never seen an E-P1 nor E-P2 around anyone's neck either....

You're looking at wrong place.....

Look at the wrist

lisandra · « **Reply #33 on:** October 09, 2011, 02:21:23 PM »

I've seen p1s p2s and plenty of gfs. Considering the faq that I live on a tiny island that says a lot about pen sales.

RT_Panther · « **Reply #34 on:** October 09, 2011, 02:31:41 PM »

Quote from: M5-User on October 09, 2011, 12:37:54 PM

You're looking at wrong place.....
Look at the wrist

There you go!

cosinaphile · « **Reply #35 on:** October 09, 2011, 08:41:24 PM »

im i nyc and ive never seen a ep1 i the wild saw i ep2 a couple of epl1sp1 a couple of gfs, a few g1
\2 ive seen several x100s however and have been approched by several folks who kew immediately i was toting an x 100and wanted my opinion of the camera ,

voyager · « **Reply #36 on:** October 11, 2011, 12:48:15 AM »

I see PEN cameras around San Francisco all the time. I also see a ton of Panasonic Micro Four Thirds cameras.

Em5 Pete · « **Reply #37 on:** October 11, 2011, 06:04:42 AM »

The Fujiguys seem to think it may be around a 1.3x sensor for the new Fuji mirror-less.

tamoio · « **Reply #38 on:** October 15, 2011, 12:58:19 PM »

Quote from: rogerml on October 08, 2011, 04:47:34 PM

tamoio said (Yesterday at 03:05:23PM): "Yes Roger (and all else), I'm a facts-kinda-guy too. In fact I'm an academic facts-kinda-guy. Someone provide me with a source for Fuji X100 sales numbers worldwide? The only place I've ever seen these sort of statistics tossed around are in thinly veiled marketing/press releases in the blogosphere. 80,000 units shipped from the factory? To where? - "

Now, first of all, I'm not an avid contributor to discussions on English language forums, the reason being that English is not my mother tongue. When you write: 'In fact I'm an academic facts-kinda-guy', I'm afraid I (might) fail to take the (intended) point? Personally, I feel my own academic background fails to give me an upper hand in trying to getting 'the facts' (of X100 world wide sales) from the web. What I can tell you, though, I know how to read facts, certainly so if they (the facts) are given in an all easy way, for everyone to understand. Here the case is that 'M-5User' served these facts in his initial post, in form of a link [Fuji to enter "mirror-less" market with LARGE sensor camera], for all (future) contributors to this thread to see. One of the photos on that link site shows what we here (among other things) are debating here, - and supplies answers to some of your'e questions (see above 'quote'), - and here's an upscaled photo (from that same link) below:

As I read and comprehend the table, - mind you, having to trust 'google' on the translation part, I believe it to be that Fujifilm states that 70thousands X100 are produced from April until September [which, by their standing point equals 'sold', - anything else would be plain 'academics', :-)], and that their 'estimates' are towards 100thousands [in total] for the remaining of 2011. No, I cannot answer to how this compare with 'the rest of the camera world', - that being Canon or Nikon, - and if you say this is 'a pee in the ocean', - or words to that effect, - then we'll leave that part to the ones who know about that. My best guess would be, in a general term, fair, more than adequate (seems to me to be a fair judgement, based on 'availability' at designated photo stores around the world, (USoA being a valid example in that), which could be a sign that sales have exceeded Fujifilm's own preplanned estimates for production capacity?). Anyhow, comparing the camera in question here with any of these brands, especially DSLR's, fails to be fair, or for that matter, logic. As you well know, the X100 was never planned, constructed or made to compete with DSLR's. Fujifilm is currently far behind CanIkon in sales, as they are behind at least three more competitors in the camera world. For some years now Fujifilm has been producing nothing but small-sensored P&S's, - and if they have any serious intention to join the 'leading pack', the more than anything else needed to bring to the marketplace a camera that made 'a market place fuzz', - in lack of a better word! And they managed that for sure! No camera I know about, has created this amount of media hype, - well before entering the said market place, - and, - must be said, have 'escaped' rather quite well from the risk of 'falling height' the company obviously were creating with this (self induced) hype!

The X100 is a complete success no matter how one chose to explain the term. If, at all, there's one 'let down' about it, it got to be the lay-out/design of the menu, - and a somewhat 'not so fantastic' AF, - significantly so when the camera is operating in low light. ISO, WB, DR and IQ competence are equal, or better, than any competitors, - Leica (X1, - and for some reasons, M8/9, with no AF at all) could, in some ways, be one of those. (I wonder what Leica m8/9 owners would do with their $7.700 houses a few years from now, - as the sensor tech in (probable) any other pro or enthusiast camera has passed the 2006 and 2009 Leica-sensor(s) technically in any meaningful sense, and thus made all M8&9 houses passé (outdated, - and not sellable to a second hand market, as have always been the case with Leicas of pre-digital, i.e. analog era). I, for one, will not feel that 'bad' when the time come I'll have to have my X100 replaced, - with hopefully, a X200, mirrorless, 'rangefinder design', hybrid viewfinder, interchangeable lens camera. :-)

You mention that I (and all else) can get 'unquestionably better tools for the same money'. I hope what you will recommend to me (and all else) is NOT a Canon DSLR, - as I already own a D1mk3, D5mk2, D40 & D7 (last week I gave away an old D20 to my wife's nephew). With those belongs a heap-load of L-glass, from 400/f5.6and downwards to 14/f2.8mk2., incl. of 85/f1.2L, TS-E 24/f3.5, 16-35/f2.8 & the two Ext. Please, neither recommend the PEN's and the GF1, - as I already own them as well. Those are all great cameras, as I (and all else) in here already know. What you recommend should be easy, - and light, to carry around on my weak back and frail legs, please. Can't wait to hear from you, :-)

Sorry, I work off-the-grid occasionally and forgot about this thread, but here is my rather rambling reply to your rather rambling rebuttal.

You say you already have a pen and a GH1, it sounds like you and I both have a lot of cameras, but how could anyone reasonably recommend something like an X100 to someone as a basis of a system to work with? I think I've said in several different threads that I think the best bang-for-the-buck in photography is one of the Lumix GH series. They are compact, versatile, capable of remarkably high quality results. The list of things that you can do with either a GH1 or GH2 and can't do with an X100 is long. If you don't mind using second-hand gear you can get your foot-in-the-door for less than $500. This is point #1; a camera like an X100 is a luxury item, an accessory, it was designed that way! This isn't to say that that you can't make good pictures with one (within the ridiculous limitation of a single focal length).

I think in my first post I said "define succeed". You can't call the X100 a success without an entire essay of qualifiers. Meaning that: at best it has succeeded in its niche which as far as I (and others) can see is a nostalgic looking pseudo-rangefinder with a nice sensor. I guess this appeals to a sub-category of individuals that imagine themselves as modern Cartier-Bressons out harvesting the decisive-moment in between Starbucks? Heck-if-I-know. I apologise that I'm certainly jaded when it comes to cameras, I started in the 70s shooting with Nikon Fs and a Rolleiflex, stayed with Nikon through the F4, switched to Leica R and M, used a fairly complete Hasselblad system professionally for a long time, Linhofs, M2s, M3s, M4s, I've been fortunate to own and use a lot of classic cameras and lenses. To me the X100 appears as sort of a bad joke. I admit that I find it vulgar when manufacturers wrap up a modern digital acquisition system to look like something from the 40s or 50s. These sort of cameras really just appeal to old-farts (and I admit to being an old-fart but if you are over 30 and think you aren't think again). I suppose I have an aesthetic bias, I might even like the camera better if it was little more hardened-weatherproofed-pro style rather than Leica M2/3.

I also admit it is anecdotal evidence but I have come into contact with a LOT of tourists from around the world in my seasonal work and I pay attention to what they are using for cameras. As an aside; there was a time that the photographically best equipped nationalities were the Japanese but I think in the 21st century they have been totally displaced by Norwegians. In any case, the most common camera I see people using are some variation on a digital-super-zoom, Canon or Nikon, after that comes compact point-and-shoots, then the enthusiast gear-DSLRS-mostly Canon. Oddly the only 4/3 and m4/3 gear I have seen belonged to Europeans, English and Germans.

Another thing that I want to point out is that I'm a big fan of Fujinon optics, Fujinon has been producing first rate professional tools for film and video for a long time, I think thats been their bread and butter for decades. I am disappointed they didn't get on the m43 wagon, we certainly don't need more sensor sizes but as I've said elsewhere the marketing divisions lead R&D by the nose.

cosinaphile · « **Reply #39 on:** October 15, 2011, 09:42:03 PM »

the reason the x 100 looks like it does is because it is the most logical way for a camera that has a real ring to adjust f stops around the lens , a real shutter speed dial , a real exposure comp dial, a real hot shoe , a real threaded shutter button .... and a real optical viewfinder.....to be made... its body is made of real metal and its designed to fit a human beings hands,

and fujifilm being the creator of many similar styled medium format rangefinders and 35 mm rf normal\wide like the hassiblad...fuji tx1 and other classically styled machines decided to give it a form and look that has dignity and elegance not unlike contax ,or leica or voigtlander or zeiss

fuji never really stopped making elegant machine reminicent of the x 100 ...to see this as a retro foray by the company , is to not understand the company fujifilm what it was, what it is, what it will continue to be..... the x 100 is simply good design, and good design doesnt need tobe reinvented every season like italian shoes ...... its more like a mans suit i suppose which has changed very slowly over the decades ,suits from 50 years ago are not fundimentally different from suits made in our times ....good things and the way they tend to look endures

thats simply a design truism when thing work a similar way or are meant to be used a similar way they tend to liiook a certain way............

this is not true for sony who think welding a "credit card" sliver of a camera body to a coke caned sized kit zoom is a reasonable design

i dont , to sonys credit the nex 7 is a great step forward imho

to only see the design heritage that has been expressed in so many cameras from countless excellent rangefinders of the past both fixed and interchangable rexpressed in cameras like the x100 as some sort of retro silliness rather that the continuations of something technologically worthy
is to miss the point and see its skin but not the total camera

fuji is going forwad with a rocket it will shake up the camera industry for the betterin the same way the ep1 did back in 2009 , and thats a very good thing imho

the fujifilm x100 is one of the best new camera ,period , it iq and quality and controls should be copied by micro 4\3 ....and probably will...........it will improve things greatly imho
and i say that as a m4\3s shooter with four m4\3 camera bodies and
seven micro 4\3 af lenses, and over 25 adapted lenses

rogerml · « **Reply #40 on:** October 16, 2011, 04:01:18 AM »

@cosinaphile: +1, :-)

Em5 Pete · « **Reply #41 on:** October 16, 2011, 06:31:44 AM »

Quote from: rogerml on October 16, 2011, 04:01:18 AM

@cosinaphile: +1, :-)

+1 also,

I totally agree here there is no reason NOT to have external dials/rings to control f/stop and shutter speed. It is how we are built, with fingers that can turn a ring/dial much quicker then using a duel wheel or navigating a 4-way control. The push-turn wheel is better then. 4-way, but typically your thumb is against face and wheel. The NEX 10 had the wheel on the top deck, behind the nicely slanted shutter release. A better design IMO.

If you look at all the past RF from Canon, Konica, Olympus, Minolta, you see a common theme design. But many of today's camera's are in many cases needing two hands to adjust some of the more common settings.

Many makes are getting better at this, but the main adjustments, SS & f/stop, could still be dials, even with control by wire.

My 2¢ worth

cosinaphile · « **Reply #42 on:** October 16, 2011, 07:12:06 AM »

to add .... i wish the next fujifilm camera to follow in the footsteps of the x 100 loses the leather like covering and goes for something a little less "formal dress" i think that some of the leica models.... leica the MP

, the very good looking leica cl and others certainly the awesome contax G and its follow up the G2 express a subtlty and nuance of form that exceeds the aesthetic success of the x 100....that being said the design decisions of fuji hasnt hurt the ergonomics one bit .....one thing ,the "grippability" of the x 100 is a little better than the m9 imho.... i hope the introduction of the x 100 inspires leica to
"get a grip" both on its top o the line machine and the direction of the company.....pun totally intended

RT_Panther · « **Reply #43 on:** October 16, 2011, 07:25:10 AM »

Hmmm....
Ford sold a lot Pintos also.....You saw them everywhere...

Was the Pinto a success then?

voyager · « **Reply #44 on:** October 17, 2011, 12:17:19 AM »

You have to be able to define success. Because of the problem with the Pinto, Ford lost a lot of money, but the Pinto was a great success until they started blowing up all the time.

Author Topic: Fujian to enter "mirror-less" SLR market (Read 3310 times)

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