Author Topic: DSLR Advice (Canon 5D?) (Read 3971 times)

pretzston · « **on:** December 02, 2011, 06:52:20 PM »

Ok. So, I am making some decisions.

I have booked 3 going on 4 weddings for 2012. I am billing them out at a pretty good rate. I expect to book more and plan on 2013 being a good year. I am not shooting these weddings on my EP3. My EP3 will become a second/backup. I am going to upgrade to a DSLR.

Thoughts?

Right now I am thinking:

Canon 5D MKII
+ Canon 16-35mm 2.8
+ Sigma 50mm 1.4
+ Sigma 85mm 1.4
+ Canon 70-200mm 2.8

Thoughts? It will not all be purchased at once. Prob grab the body, 16-35 and 50 for now. Get the 85mm before the first wedding and grab the 70-200 once I get a few more weddings.

I, honestly, am a beginning and shouldn't be getting a camera like this. That being said, the wedding shoots are working and I need a second income so I am going all in. I am a fast learner. The camera complexity doesn't scare me, just want to make good gear decisions.

voyager · « **Reply #1 on:** December 02, 2011, 08:07:44 PM »

Do you have to get a 5D Mark II? The 5D classic is less than half the price now, leaving more room for lenses.

The Canon 24-70mm f/2.8L is the best L lens out there, it should be on your list.

Jason C · « **Reply #2 on:** December 02, 2011, 10:07:02 PM »

Hope I can help, I shoot Canon.

Bodies:

The 5D is still a very capable body, it will give you usable (when properly exposed) iso 3200 files. The 5D also has one of the weaker AA filters used in a Canon body, so the files appear sharper. Some complain about the 5D's AF ability in low light, then again, it is NOT a 1D body...and I've not had problems with AF in lower light.

It is getting long in the tooth for some, but it's still a strong body that can still handle wedding duty.

Not much I can say about the 5D2, 'cept that it newer, got more bells and whisltes, got more MP, HAS THE SAME AF AS THE 5D, can get you usable (when properly exposed) iso 6400 files, a stronger AA filter, and from what some say less soul than the 5D. That being said, I most likely will add a 5D2 in the future to keep up with the times, but also keep the 5D (or even go back to the very awesome 1Ds).

Glass:

"Bodies come and go, but glass is forever..." I've read this countless times elsewhere, and it's true. Good glass makes all the difference. Voyager claims the Canon 24-70/2.8 L to be the best of the L series, and I would normally debate this but it is a classic choice for wedding photographers. I've owned one in the past, it was an excellent copy and it was a great standard zoom, but let it go due to lack of use (prime lover here).

The Canon 16-35/2.8 L is another classic weeding photog lens, as is the 70-200/2.8 L IS. However, a prime is needed in there, and an 85 seems to be the go-to fl. I see you have listed a Sigma 85 as a possibility, and if you go that route I wish you luck. I've played the "Sigma Lottery" 6 times, and lost every time...even after multiple calibrations. I admit, Sigma offers great IQ and wonderful bokeh, I wish I had better luck with 'em.

Anyway, the 85L may be bloody expensive, but it's worth every penny. The 85/1.8 is a good, solid lens with fast AF but it truly does lack that special something that the 85L has. Maybe in your situation, the 85/1.8 first, make a few dollars, sell it then get an 85L.

The Canon 50/1.4 is a good lens, with in my opinioon good and accurate afwith good color and contrast. Not great, but good. My copy is soft at mfd wide open, but sharpens up with added distance to the subject. My 50/1.4 gets really good at f/1.8. It's the oldest lens in my DSLR kit.

Another important piece of equipment is the Canon 580EXII Speedlite, two of them with either a lot of batteries or battery packs. Flash is very important. Why the 580s, faster recycle times.

Glass is king, but remember you'll need a solid back-up body for the event, and it should be a body that can mount your other lenses and flash units.

Jason C

lisandra · « **Reply #3 on:** December 02, 2011, 11:06:29 PM »

The new 5d3 should be out soon, so the 5d2 might get a price drop with it. i really dont mean to get into an argument with anyone but I have to disagree with the comments so far; the 5d2 is infinitely better than the 5d1. Ive only had them on a one day basis, but thats enough. Heres why(Aside from the almost twice more resolution sensor and the way better digic 4):
- auto ISO on the d1 tops out at 1600 (its annoying, believe me) vs 6400 on the d2
- live view (no mirror flip)
- sensor dust cleaning
- um, movie if you care
- battery life and vast battery info (shots left, percentage, serial number, you name it)
- custom copyright in the metadata
- AF micro adjustment on any EOS lens (easily the best feature)
- bigger, brighter VF and LCD
- last and more important, the quick control screen. its not that the 5d is bad at it, its just that the 5d2 is infinitely better at it. Everything is way way more accessible.

Now, thats my case statement with the 5d2, BUT, have you considered the 7D? very feature rich, and can keep up with the 5d2 up to ISO 1600 in RAWwith 3200-6400 not far behind. And its 1000$ less.

On the glass side of things, I think you have the list backwards. A 70-200 is a must must must for weddings. The 16-35 is too wide for much use, voyager is right with the 24-70. I think these should be your first two lenses. You have the right idea with the sigma 85mm1.4, its the sharpest of the canon/nikon/zeiss/sony counterparts for way less money (see chart below) and AF is not a problem with AF micro adjust. If you get the 7D you can get the almost equivalents mm lenses with the sigma 50-150 and the 16-35 you mentioned.

pretzston · « **Reply #4 on:** December 03, 2011, 09:44:31 AM »

Thanks for the input. I will spend some time reviewing your comments. I feel so over my head. But, the wedding stuff is going well and I am making an investment. I want to make the right one.

I know the 5D3 will be out sometime soon. I wish I could wait but I have a wedding in May and I want to get things moving and learn. I can always sell it an upgrade if needs be. It seems to make sense to go with full frame from the start after having experienced the cropped sensor on m43.

I would love to get the 70-200 right away but, at $2000... ouch! What about version 1 of the lens? It is going for about $1200 or so.

I love wides which is why I thought the 16-35 would be neat with low light ability. This is for both wedding and engagements and with engagements I actually use the 9-18mm a lot on my PEN for dramatic scenic stuff.

The kit lens 24-105, anyone have experience with it? Make sense to get kit instead of body? I was thinking body and put the money towards a lens I will DEF use.

Jason C · « **Reply #5 on:** December 03, 2011, 06:48:49 PM »

Well, no one knows when the 5D3 will be released. And who cares, the 5D2 is capable. Besides, Canon would release a 1Ds3 replacement before a 5D3.

The 24-105/4 L is fine, but it'll be too slow for what you need and the bokeh is a bit harsh. You could turn a little profit in buying the kit, then selling the lens...but that can be a hassle.

The first version of Canon's 70-200/2.8 L IS runs between $1300 to $1600 used. There is a sharpness and IS advantage with version 2, and it is noticeable, but the two lenses are closer than you would think.

In regards to Sigma products, let me just add that Sigma lenses are the only third party lenses (Tamron and Tokina) I have used that have had AF issues. Yes, Lisandra makes a good point about the 5D2 having af micro adjust, and that may be the ticket as it has been for other Sigma owners. Some only have to MA a small amount, some need a lot of adjustment and some are beyond MA. Let me just add that not a single EOS lens of mine has been off, needed MA (I have never had, or needed this feature) or needed to be shipped off the the manufacturer for adjustment. Still, there are Canon lens horror stories, especially surrounding the 24-70L.

Also, an MA on my once owned Sigma 30/1.4 would not have mattered, since the lens severely ratcheted back and forth during lower light af, not LOW LOW light but lower light on both a 40D and a 1Ds. And yes, it also back focused. Back to back testing with the Sigma 30/1.4 and the lowly and cheap Canon 35/2 proved the Sigma was inaccurate, and hunted way more than the spot-on Canon. My Sigma 150/2.8 HSM Macro front focused badly. My Sigma 24-70 was so bad, I sent it back to the seller for a replacement. The replacement was only just bad, that was sent off to be calibrated...twice. I packed it away and bought what I should have to begin with, the Canon 24-70L.

True, not all Sigmas are bad copies, and not all Canons are good copies. But it is in my experience that Canon's QC is superior to Sigma's. And furthermore, my Canon lenses (and even past owned Tokina and Tamrons) have never given me focusing issues. I cannot recommend ANY Sigma lens, and it's too bad because there is some great IQ in some of those lenses. My heartbreak 30/1.4 was breathtaking wide open--when manually focused. I would rather use my Rokinon 85/1.4 MF lens for a wedding instead of a Sigma 85/1.4...

I do not hate Sigma, I just do not trust their AF.

I will reiterate by stating that I've used several different 85mm lenses by several manufacturers, and I would buy the 85IIL...it is THAT good.

Jason C

lisandra · « **Reply #6 on:** December 03, 2011, 10:50:35 PM »

Quote

True, not all Sigmas are bad copies, and not all Canons are good copies

Very true, the 70-200 2 I used with the 5d2 front focused, but the owner had already corrected it in camera using lens align (a very good product).

At the very least, were all in much or less in a agreement. The 5D2 is very capable, and you need a 70-200, and a 85 as your workhorses. The 24-105 is what I call a safe lens, you have a wide side and a cropy side, but the sharpness is nowhere near the 70-200 II or any 85 1.4. And jason is right about the difference between the 70-200 I and II, its not that the I is particularly bad, its great actually, but the II is better, noticeably sharper.

lisandra · « **Reply #7 on:** December 04, 2011, 01:38:47 PM »

It still makes more sense to me getting a 7d first and spend the money on glass, then, once you've done a couple of jobs buy the 5d2

voyager · « **Reply #8 on:** December 05, 2011, 02:23:51 AM »

The problem with Sigma and Tamron lenses are that the brands have to reverse engineer their lenses to work with Canon cameras, so they don't always quite match up how they should. Lots of times they have to be sent back for micro adjustment for frontfocusing and backfocusing.

pretzston · « **Reply #9 on:** December 05, 2011, 06:53:29 PM »

Thanks so much for all the info everyone! I love this forum. Everyone is very helpful. I wish I had the technical expertise to help like you guys! I am amazing at the time and thought people put into their responses. Delightful. I wish I knew you guys in the real world.

Quote from: lisandra on December 04, 2011, 01:38:47 PM

It still makes more sense to me getting a 7d first and spend the money on glass, then, once you've done a couple of jobs buy the 5d2

I have a friend with the 7D. Actually, they have three 7Ds. They are a high end web design firm. Pretty neat company if I don't say so myself. Check em out, www.neo-pangea.com ... anyway, back to cameras. The 7D truly does look like an amazing camera too. How do you feel the low light performance is in comparison to the 5D? Certainly putting the money towards the glass could be the way to go and then upgrading when the 5DIII comes out.

I JUST BOOKED ANOTHER WEDDING TONIGHT

I'm amazing at how well it is going! I only have one wedding in my portfolio too!

Basically, I have about $6000 to spend initially. An initial input of $4500 and then another $1500. The wedding I have booked pay for the equipment already so I feel very confident this is a relatively good investment, even if I am overwhelmed.

The question is, what is the best way to equip. Body, lens, flashes +.

In my head right now, I see it as this... although, the Sigma endorsement I had received is in question now...

Canon 5DmkII BODY
Canon 70-200mm L II
Sigma 50 1.4 OF Canon 1.4

Flash
Triggers
Umbrella/Stand

Then I was thinking perhaps the regular Canon EF 35mm 2.0 for something a bit wider?

Then save up for 85mm 1.2 or 85 1.4 and Canon 16-35 2.8.

And, as ridiculous as it may seem, I gotta get the expensive 45mm tilt shift. I have actually literally used the diorama filter in the PEN to develop some style with the effects. I would like to execute it for real.

Jason C · « **Reply #10 on:** December 05, 2011, 07:07:54 PM »

Quote from: pretzston on December 05, 2011, 06:53:29 PM

Then I was thinking perhaps the regular Canon EF 35mm 2.0 for something a bit wider?

That is a wonderful lens that has some really good IQ and focuses accurately and relatively fast. HOWEVER, the EF 35/2 uses an older micro AF drive, not USM, and it is noisy during AF! Some liken the AF sound of the 35/2 to that of an angry hornet. Not an ideal lens for the discreet wedding photog...

Also, the 35/2 vignettes strongly wide open on a FF. I'll post a link to a vignette test I did with that lens.

Canon has the EF 28/1.8 USM. Focuses fast and quiet and has good IQ and can be had for about $400 used. Now, this may be a redundant lens if you plan on getting the Canon 24-70/2.8L. Sure, the 28/1.8 may be faster by a stop and a third, the L zoom has far better IQ, versatility and you can go 4mm wider.

Jason C

lisandra · « **Reply #11 on:** December 05, 2011, 09:24:59 PM »

Quote

How do you feel the low light performance is in comparison to the 5D?

Ive had more experience with the 5d2, but form the time ive had with the 7d, high ISO is right up there with the 5d2 at least up until ISO 1600. Super close at ISO 3200; if you get rid of the color noise and match their size you wont be able to tell between the two. Ill tell you this though, the 7d is more comfortable to hold than the 5d2, has a bright pentaprism vf that covers 100% of the frame (vs 98% on the 5d2), has a much better and wider AF than the 5d2, has a chunky 8 frames/sec (vs 4) and has 5evs of exposure comp (vs 2 on the 5d 2). And the handling and menu surfing is even better than the fantastic 5d2 (although very very overwhelming at first).

At any rate, you need a second body anyway. A capable flash gun is paramount right from the start, one that can act as a commander to trigger others and I recommend the gary fung diffuser for un-blown, natural looking stuff.

Listen, dont feel overwhelmed by all this, you certainly have the talent. If you want to broaden your portfolio, dress up two or three couples for wedding and do some shots, some find it unethical, but you do what needs be done. FInd a good album maker, if you want a lead see this: http://www.renaissancealbums.com/new/index.html . They make super high quality albums that need to be seen in person, and you get 50% off if its a demo album. Photobooks are really popular with the young couples and are way more inexpensive, shutterfly, adorama and others are really good quality. A serious RAW converter and photo editor is no longer something to consider, its a must. Anyway, Im being bossy again, so, there you go for now.

count_zero · « **Reply #12 on:** December 05, 2011, 11:58:25 PM »

My advice is don't get a Canon. I belong to a sports shooter's group and they always complain about how they can't shoot sports without a flash indoors even with the high end CaNikons and f2.8 glass. If you don't care about bokeh and have to use a flash, then why pay premium prices on gear? A friend of mine bought a GH2 and let me borrow it for a bit. As far as I can tell, it is a professional camera in every way. If you really need fast zooms or telephotos, then rent a Canikon kit for the wedding and wait for more X series lenses. The future X series 12-35mm and 35-100mm f2.8 covers nearly every thing a professional will need.

voyager · « **Reply #13 on:** December 06, 2011, 03:02:11 AM »

That is a good point...many people give Canon the automatic out as being the best, when in reality there are quite a few issues with what you'd expect to work perfectly with their cameras and lenses.

lisandra · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2011, 11:31:27 AM »

I understand and support counts point but, pretzston is dead set on getting a mirror slr and I'm not one to deny some advice if asked. I use the gh2 professionally and make quite the profit from it, I actually have proof that it outresolves the 7d, even if its by a tiny bit; but I completely understand the people who simply can accept a mirrorless camera as being pro. On the 5d2 using f2.8 on that 70-200 is really impractical, you will very rarely get Tue focus in what you want it, and the both times I've used it in weddings I end up at f5.6-8 almost the whole day. I truly believe hectic events like weddings benefit more from crop sensors than from full framers, but still I understand the logic behind getting one. Plus, I think Canon glass is better than nikons even if nikon bodies are better...

pretzston · « **Reply #15 on:** December 06, 2011, 12:04:00 PM »

I love the EP3. Outside of some color balancing issues with the reds I am trying to overcome I love everything about it. But, I can't say my image quality is that the 5D.

In addition, 2 out of the four weddings I have def good to go have asked about equipment. Regardless of whether I always defend the PENs and m43, people do expect a big bulky camera when they are paying decent dollars.

That being said... end of the day, I need to get my hobby bringing in some dollars. I wish that wasn't the case, but life, kids, etc... with 4 weddings going on more I am hoping to ride this hard and with investment and drive. All I want to do is feel confident in my investments. I literally have to make weddings work to help out and get this photography thing paying some bills or I'm gonna end up working my weekends anyway somewhere else doing something else no where near as productive and career oriented!

Lisa - SPEAK YOUR MIND, I love how awesomely helpful you are. Everyone is truly awesome, but especially you.

lisandra · « **Reply #16 on:** December 06, 2011, 12:42:26 PM »

Quote

Lisa - SPEAK YOUR MIND, I love how awesomely helpful you are. Everyone is truly awesome, but especially you.

Thank you thank you thank you

The more I think about your particular case the more i convince myself you should save money on the body for now and invest on glass. The 7D looks pretty pro and If youre patient enough, and if you keep booking at the rate you are, in less than a year you can get the 5D3 easy!! From there its mostly all profit for years to come!

peterb666 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 06, 2011, 01:18:31 PM »

For a basic wedding kit, go for a 5D MkII and 24-70 f/2.8 and 70-200 f/2.8. Rather than buying more lenses, get another body (a second-hand 5D will do) so you don't have to stuff around changing lenses. Add 2 flash and a good tripod and a portable reflector - all you will need.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

pretzston · « **Reply #18 on:** December 06, 2011, 01:52:11 PM »

Well, I'll have the EP3 kit there too which I figured I would use for more detail shots.

The thing is the 7D is $1400 versus the 5D $2000 or so. $600 difference makes me just say 5D.

lisandra · « **Reply #19 on:** December 06, 2011, 07:45:25 PM »

Quote from: pretzston on December 06, 2011, 01:52:11 PM

Well, I'll have the EP3 kit there too which I figured I would use for more detail shots.

The thing is the 7D is $1400 versus the 5D $2000 or so. $600 difference makes me just say 5D.

I was thinking 5d2s still ran for about 2400$, if 2000$ is the price forget about the 7d and go for it!!!!!

Quote

good tripod and a portable reflector

not paramount, a reflector (and the second flash) requires an assistant, if you have him then by all means (and make him carry the stuff). A tripod I see no use for, itll be an absolute hassle to carry and not really useful.

lisandra · « **Reply #20 on:** December 06, 2011, 08:08:56 PM »

Quote from: lisandra on December 06, 2011, 07:45:25 PM

Quote from: pretzston on December 06, 2011, 01:52:11 PM
Well, I'll have the EP3 kit there too which I figured I would use for more detail shots.

The thing is the 7D is $1400 versus the 5D $2000 or so. $600 difference makes me just say 5D.
I was thinking 5d2s still ran for about 2400$, if 2000$ is the price forget about the 7d and go for it!!!!!

Quote
good tripod and a portable reflector
not paramount, a reflector (and the second flash) requires an assistant, if you have him then by all means (and make him carry the stuff). A tripod I see no use for, itll be an absolute hassle to carry and not really useful.

unless the tripod is gonna hold the second flash, then its not such a bad idea

SOO, heres the main consensus:

-a 5d2
- a capable flash (2 if you have who to hold it, or like the tripod idea)
- i gotta insist on the 70-200, it does portraits, headshots, close ups, macros, you name it
- a wide zoom. The 24-70 seems to be popular amongst us, but if you prefer wider the 16-35 is wide wide wide

all in all (body, 70-200, 580ex, 430ex, 16-35) will run you more or less 6000$, which is right there with your budget. Or, for about the same money, you can skip the 430ex second flash for now and get a gary fong diffuser (which I cant live without) and a BG E6 battery grip and shoot the whole wedding with one charge (I shot 1022 frames and the screen showed it still had 58% left).

RT_Panther · « **Reply #21 on:** December 07, 2011, 09:53:47 AM »

Quote from: count_zero on December 05, 2011, 11:58:25 PM

My advice is don't get a Canon. I belong to a sports shooter's group and they always complain about how they can't shoot sports without a flash indoors even with the high end CaNikons and f2.8 glass. If you don't care about bokeh and have to use a flash, then why pay premium prices on gear? A friend of mine bought a GH2 and let me borrow it for a bit. As far as I can tell, it is a professional camera in every way. If you really need fast zooms or telephotos, then rent a Canikon kit for the wedding and wait for more X series lenses. The future X series 12-35mm and 35-100mm f2.8 covers nearly every thing a professional will need.

Have these "CaNikon" users shot with a D700 or D3s and complained about low light performance indoors?

Em5 Pete · « **Reply #22 on:** December 07, 2011, 09:58:03 AM »

A lot of great advice Lisandra....
the 2 lens combo is an absolute workhorse....

I used a 21/35 f/2.8, and 35-135, but, the 70-200 is a much more versatile lens, as you said...

pretzston · « **Reply #23 on:** December 07, 2011, 11:02:40 AM »

I think we have come up with a plan! I agree while expensive, the 70-200 on a full frame will be a necessity. And then something wide. I'll have to decide on the 16-35 or the 24-70.

I'll do some learning and researching into the flashes too so I can understand and ask questions without sounding like a moron.

And, I booked ANOTHER wedding this morning! I'm pretty excited because Xmas/NYE/VDay will bring more engagements so I am hoping to pick up a few more.

Actually, I just signed up for a 3 day workshop in Las Vegas with one of my favorite photographers! So in March I will have an awesome instructional session. The Hoffer Genesis Workshop!

lisandra · « **Reply #24 on:** December 07, 2011, 01:01:11 PM »

Quote from: pretzston on December 07, 2011, 11:02:40 AM

I think we have come up with a plan! I agree while expensive, the 70-200 on a full frame will be a necessity. And then something wide. I'll have to decide on the 16-35 or the 24-70.

I'll do some learning and researching into the flashes too so I can understand and ask questions without sounding like a moron.

And, I booked ANOTHER wedding this morning! I'm pretty excited because Xmas/NYE/VDay will bring more engagements so I am hoping to pick up a few more.

Actually, I just signed up for a 3 day workshop in Las Vegas with one of my favorite photographers! So in March I will have an awesome instructional session. The Hoffer Genesis Workshop!

Workshops are awesome!!!flash is overwhelming at first, but I guarantee youll love controlling light, shadows dynamic range and mood once you get the hang of it. If you ever feel like youre being repetitive or stuck michelle perkins books on posing are quite good (hit and miss affair, ones are super great, others are so so). I recommend 500 poses for photographing brides and 500 poses for photographing couples. At 20 bucks a pop, theres not much to loose. Links:

[url=http://www.amazon.com/500-Poses-Photographing-Brides-Photographers/dp/158428272X/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1323290930&sr=1-1-catcorr]http://www.amazon.com/500-Poses-Photographing-Brides-Photographers/dp/158428272X/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1323290930&sr=1-1-catcorr[/url]
http://www.amazon.com/500-Poses-Photographing-Couples-Photographers/dp/1608953106/ref=sr_1_cc_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1323290930&sr=1-3-catcorr

The first one has been reeeally useful to me

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